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	<title>Comments on: FEES &#8211; SERVICES</title>
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		<title>By: Thomas Gehring</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Gehring]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe that funding for this should be spread out evenly throughout the state.  There are of course the initial benefactors of the program but there are secondary benefactors that cannot be as easily quantified.  We need to be mindful of not creating more beaurocracy to support unneeded staffing but on the flip side to recognize that getting a grip on this complex subject requires human resources.As now being involved in municipal government for the last four years, I can see how some people tend to expect the government to idealistically take care of everything for them.  In my small community it takes a match in people donating their time and energy to push things through.  This is how we take ownership.  We shouldn&#039;t expect to throw a bunch of money at something and expect it to work.  I think that funding should be utilized to empower people in their own community to make a difference.      Balance can be achieved in this by not taking a stoic approach about a particular story but by addressing growing issues that are quite complex. Good resource management takes an open-minded approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that funding for this should be spread out evenly throughout the state.  There are of course the initial benefactors of the program but there are secondary benefactors that cannot be as easily quantified.  We need to be mindful of not creating more beaurocracy to support unneeded staffing but on the flip side to recognize that getting a grip on this complex subject requires human resources.As now being involved in municipal government for the last four years, I can see how some people tend to expect the government to idealistically take care of everything for them.  In my small community it takes a match in people donating their time and energy to push things through.  This is how we take ownership.  We shouldn&#8217;t expect to throw a bunch of money at something and expect it to work.  I think that funding should be utilized to empower people in their own community to make a difference.      Balance can be achieved in this by not taking a stoic approach about a particular story but by addressing growing issues that are quite complex. Good resource management takes an open-minded approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Schultz</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dennis Schultz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 18:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[This whole discussion points out how DOE has failed to perform doing their legislatively mandated duties.  They have put off and refused to process water right applications for many years.  Now they want the legislasture to allow them to charge &#039;fees&#039; of questionable legality to the applicants that applied in good faith years ago.  

This brings up a number of questions:  Can they make they legally make the fees retroactive?  Is this a violation of the RICCO Act?  Other Government agencies have been sued under this Act.  Will they only be applied to future applicants?  How will DOE separate actual fees for service from their geweral expenses?  

The best solution to this mess is to take control of water away from DOE and give it to a  new agency that has very clear guidelines about what its responsibilities are and the rules under which it will operate.  This new agency should not include any of the current DOE management.  In the viewpoint of most of the water users in this state they are &#039;tainted&#039; with their past failures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole discussion points out how DOE has failed to perform doing their legislatively mandated duties.  They have put off and refused to process water right applications for many years.  Now they want the legislasture to allow them to charge &#8216;fees&#8217; of questionable legality to the applicants that applied in good faith years ago.  </p>
<p>This brings up a number of questions:  Can they make they legally make the fees retroactive?  Is this a violation of the RICCO Act?  Other Government agencies have been sued under this Act.  Will they only be applied to future applicants?  How will DOE separate actual fees for service from their geweral expenses?  </p>
<p>The best solution to this mess is to take control of water away from DOE and give it to a  new agency that has very clear guidelines about what its responsibilities are and the rules under which it will operate.  This new agency should not include any of the current DOE management.  In the viewpoint of most of the water users in this state they are &#8216;tainted&#8217; with their past failures.</p>
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		<title>By: Eco Think</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eco Think]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When Fish and Wildlife charges fees to take the fish is it a tax?  When Natural Resources charges fees to take their timber is it a tax?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Fish and Wildlife charges fees to take the fish is it a tax?  When Natural Resources charges fees to take their timber is it a tax?</p>
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		<title>By: wateruser1</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wateruser1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure. Let the fish pay. 

Who benefits? Me?  yeah. When you shut me off, the senior guy downstream benefits. Charge him. Instream flows benefit fish. 

And if you don&#039;t manage, who benefits?  The illegal user?  The junior right?  The guys who work for them?  


Figure out who benefits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure. Let the fish pay. </p>
<p>Who benefits? Me?  yeah. When you shut me off, the senior guy downstream benefits. Charge him. Instream flows benefit fish. </p>
<p>And if you don&#8217;t manage, who benefits?  The illegal user?  The junior right?  The guys who work for them?  </p>
<p>Figure out who benefits.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Hatcher</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee Hatcher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think this should vary depending on the type of service and amount of water being used. Generally yes, it is a good idea and would fit in with continuing to fund watershed management for at least four more years. Some of the revenues should be allocated to local watershed management groups. This would provide the beginnings of base funding that would stabilize these groups. Watershed management will be needed throughout this century. A system that includes local responsibility and state level support will work best. I also think that all citizens of Washington should pay some portion of the cost for managing water, since we all must have water and benefit from sound management practices which are currently being developed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this should vary depending on the type of service and amount of water being used. Generally yes, it is a good idea and would fit in with continuing to fund watershed management for at least four more years. Some of the revenues should be allocated to local watershed management groups. This would provide the beginnings of base funding that would stabilize these groups. Watershed management will be needed throughout this century. A system that includes local responsibility and state level support will work best. I also think that all citizens of Washington should pay some portion of the cost for managing water, since we all must have water and benefit from sound management practices which are currently being developed.</p>
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		<title>By: City of Kent/T. Mortimer</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[City of Kent/T. Mortimer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[City of Kent Comment.  According to the Department of Ecology, water management services provided by the agency include adjudications, instream flow setting, dam safety, managing water rights (decisions on new/change applications/replacement/exempt wells), drought response, enforcement, data collection, well construction, watershed management and supporting water use efficiency (reuse).    Although each of the above “services” arguably provides some benefit to the State, including the public at large, we would not agree that each of the above programs provides a “benefit” to water right holders that warrants an annual water right fee.   Indeed, many of the “services” constitute broad based public programs, rather than providing direct benefits to water right holders and/or directly regulating their conduct.

Adjudication, flow setting, data collection, enforcement, etc provide no direct “benefit” to water right holders nor is that the statutory intent of such programs.   To the contrary, such programs are clearly regulatory in nature, intended to support broader state interests.    Further the “benefits” of programs relating to drought enforcement, watershed management, and well construction are disparate among communities and user groups within the state, and often provide no direct or indirect “benefit” to water right holders.  Obviously, the watershed management program provides no benefits to water right holders in King and Snohomish Counties where no such programs exist due to tribal opposition and other factors.  And although dam safety, reuse, and data collection are in the public interest, it is arguable whether these programs provide “benefits” to all water right holders, particularly given the fact, for example, that inland reuse simply does not appear viable from a regulatory context.  It should further be noted that virtually all water right decisions in the state for new applications and change applications are now subject to cost reimbursement, a program whereby Ecology’s “management service” costs are fully recovered.

Overall, the assumption that above programs provide “benefits” to state water right holders that justify an annual water right fee appears legally problematic.  More specifically, such an “annual fee” would appear to constitute a “tax” as opposed to a “fee for service” and thus may not be consistent with law.   In this regard, the Washington State Supreme Court has made it clear that if the primary purpose of a law is to collect revenue to finance broad based public programs or improvements, rather than to regulate the person paying the charge, the charge may be recognized as an unlawful tax.   The context of the above question, and more specifically Ecology’s stated interest in imposing an annual water right fee appears clearly intended to raise revenue for several arguably “broad based public programs,” as opposed to regulating/benefiting the conduct of (all) individual water right holders.  Further, absent a direct relationship between the fee charged and the service received by the person paying the charge, a “fee” can be found to constitute an unlawful “tax”.   

Given the broad scope of the “management services” Ecology is seeking to financially support, and the highly attenuated, if even existent direct relationship between many of those “services” and water right holders, it does not appear legally appropriate or sound public policy for Ecology to make a blanket assumption that (1) all water right holders (directly/indirectly) benefits from such services; and (2) that the recovery of costs for such services can properly occur via an (annual) fee schedule.  Ecology may be better advised to increase program revenues by establishing  a fee system where there is a clear and direct nexus between the service and applicant “benefit” and/or regulated conduct, and where the costs for such service can be effectively quantified.   For services that do not provide a direct “benefit” or operate to clearly/directly  “regulate” a water right holder’s conduct, Ecology may be compelled to determine how such costs can be addressed in the form of a properly framed tax measure. 

As a final comment, it now appears that the great proportion of DOE&#039;s programmatic efforts are focused on protecting and/or regulating unappropriated water that remains in streams/groundwater in order to protect stream/fish flows.  It therefore seems reasonable that this programmatic priority or benefit of &quot;resource protection&quot; should be a subject of general fund support, as opposed to fees on individual water right holders.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>City of Kent Comment.  According to the Department of Ecology, water management services provided by the agency include adjudications, instream flow setting, dam safety, managing water rights (decisions on new/change applications/replacement/exempt wells), drought response, enforcement, data collection, well construction, watershed management and supporting water use efficiency (reuse).    Although each of the above “services” arguably provides some benefit to the State, including the public at large, we would not agree that each of the above programs provides a “benefit” to water right holders that warrants an annual water right fee.   Indeed, many of the “services” constitute broad based public programs, rather than providing direct benefits to water right holders and/or directly regulating their conduct.</p>
<p>Adjudication, flow setting, data collection, enforcement, etc provide no direct “benefit” to water right holders nor is that the statutory intent of such programs.   To the contrary, such programs are clearly regulatory in nature, intended to support broader state interests.    Further the “benefits” of programs relating to drought enforcement, watershed management, and well construction are disparate among communities and user groups within the state, and often provide no direct or indirect “benefit” to water right holders.  Obviously, the watershed management program provides no benefits to water right holders in King and Snohomish Counties where no such programs exist due to tribal opposition and other factors.  And although dam safety, reuse, and data collection are in the public interest, it is arguable whether these programs provide “benefits” to all water right holders, particularly given the fact, for example, that inland reuse simply does not appear viable from a regulatory context.  It should further be noted that virtually all water right decisions in the state for new applications and change applications are now subject to cost reimbursement, a program whereby Ecology’s “management service” costs are fully recovered.</p>
<p>Overall, the assumption that above programs provide “benefits” to state water right holders that justify an annual water right fee appears legally problematic.  More specifically, such an “annual fee” would appear to constitute a “tax” as opposed to a “fee for service” and thus may not be consistent with law.   In this regard, the Washington State Supreme Court has made it clear that if the primary purpose of a law is to collect revenue to finance broad based public programs or improvements, rather than to regulate the person paying the charge, the charge may be recognized as an unlawful tax.   The context of the above question, and more specifically Ecology’s stated interest in imposing an annual water right fee appears clearly intended to raise revenue for several arguably “broad based public programs,” as opposed to regulating/benefiting the conduct of (all) individual water right holders.  Further, absent a direct relationship between the fee charged and the service received by the person paying the charge, a “fee” can be found to constitute an unlawful “tax”.   </p>
<p>Given the broad scope of the “management services” Ecology is seeking to financially support, and the highly attenuated, if even existent direct relationship between many of those “services” and water right holders, it does not appear legally appropriate or sound public policy for Ecology to make a blanket assumption that (1) all water right holders (directly/indirectly) benefits from such services; and (2) that the recovery of costs for such services can properly occur via an (annual) fee schedule.  Ecology may be better advised to increase program revenues by establishing  a fee system where there is a clear and direct nexus between the service and applicant “benefit” and/or regulated conduct, and where the costs for such service can be effectively quantified.   For services that do not provide a direct “benefit” or operate to clearly/directly  “regulate” a water right holder’s conduct, Ecology may be compelled to determine how such costs can be addressed in the form of a properly framed tax measure. </p>
<p>As a final comment, it now appears that the great proportion of DOE&#8217;s programmatic efforts are focused on protecting and/or regulating unappropriated water that remains in streams/groundwater in order to protect stream/fish flows.  It therefore seems reasonable that this programmatic priority or benefit of &#8220;resource protection&#8221; should be a subject of general fund support, as opposed to fees on individual water right holders.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Garrity</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Garrity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes.  It makes good fiscal and policy sense for beneficiaries of the water management system to pay for a higher portion of the cost of managing the resource from which they benefit.  Higher user fees should be structured to provide adequate and stable funding for Ecology, which has lacked the resources needed to efficiently and effectively manage water for out-of-stream and instream purposes.  Fees should also be structured to provides a clear financial incentive to use water more efficiently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.  It makes good fiscal and policy sense for beneficiaries of the water management system to pay for a higher portion of the cost of managing the resource from which they benefit.  Higher user fees should be structured to provide adequate and stable funding for Ecology, which has lacked the resources needed to efficiently and effectively manage water for out-of-stream and instream purposes.  Fees should also be structured to provides a clear financial incentive to use water more efficiently.</p>
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		<title>By: WallaWalla</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WallaWalla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That report (IMO) has some big problems. 

Like a sliding scale where we are charged less if we use less? Sweet! Oh waitaminute, should you or I &quot;conserve&quot; for 5 years we lose that portion (Qa, Qi, Place of use, season, even purpose). 

Unless we put it in a trust or water bank. Which opens users to partial relinquishment since a trust requires and extent and validity test.

The one water bank I&#039;m aware of doesn&#039;t require a test, but when you pull it out and someone complains...blammo! Extent and validity. And now maybe it&#039;s been in the bank long enough that the user doesn&#039;t not have the records (or the property is sold and its a new user) to prove one way or the other if the water was used. And the burden is on the right holder to prove they did use it, not on Ecology to prove you didn&#039;t. 

Oh and while Ecology states &quot;Washington state lags behind California, Oregon and British Columbia in requiring users of water resources services to pay for the services.&quot; We also lag behind Oregon who has NO partial relinquishment and we&#039;re light years ahead of California which (for the most part) doesn&#039;t even regulate ground water use at all. 

I&#039;m beginning to think Ecology is being quite selective with it&#039;s facts to make a sketchy argument more appealing.

The fact is if you flush a toilet, or take a shower in this state you are a water user. Ecology manages the resource for the users...and that&#039;s eveyone. Not just the single user (or municipality...they&#039;ll be paying a fee too...right?) who has a permit to pump water out of the river/well. Those users are just first in the chain, and the easiest target to go after in a tight budget year. 

Sigh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That report (IMO) has some big problems. </p>
<p>Like a sliding scale where we are charged less if we use less? Sweet! Oh waitaminute, should you or I &#8220;conserve&#8221; for 5 years we lose that portion (Qa, Qi, Place of use, season, even purpose). </p>
<p>Unless we put it in a trust or water bank. Which opens users to partial relinquishment since a trust requires and extent and validity test.</p>
<p>The one water bank I&#8217;m aware of doesn&#8217;t require a test, but when you pull it out and someone complains&#8230;blammo! Extent and validity. And now maybe it&#8217;s been in the bank long enough that the user doesn&#8217;t not have the records (or the property is sold and its a new user) to prove one way or the other if the water was used. And the burden is on the right holder to prove they did use it, not on Ecology to prove you didn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Oh and while Ecology states &#8220;Washington state lags behind California, Oregon and British Columbia in requiring users of water resources services to pay for the services.&#8221; We also lag behind Oregon who has NO partial relinquishment and we&#8217;re light years ahead of California which (for the most part) doesn&#8217;t even regulate ground water use at all. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m beginning to think Ecology is being quite selective with it&#8217;s facts to make a sketchy argument more appealing.</p>
<p>The fact is if you flush a toilet, or take a shower in this state you are a water user. Ecology manages the resource for the users&#8230;and that&#8217;s eveyone. Not just the single user (or municipality&#8230;they&#8217;ll be paying a fee too&#8230;right?) who has a permit to pump water out of the river/well. Those users are just first in the chain, and the easiest target to go after in a tight budget year. </p>
<p>Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine Brooks</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Katherine Brooks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How will DOE define who benefits from the management services?  Does this include the general public that expects water to be available?  Or is it the individual water purveyors who are trying to meet the water demands for growth or the farmers who are trying to have enough water to produce food for a growing population?  The State has an obligation to manage water resources and as such should provide necessary resources (i.e. adequate staffing) through the General Fund.  It is also reasonable to expect applicants for new water rights or changes to help pay via a user fee (fair share and balanced amount).  However, it is equally reasonable for the payers of these user fees to expect that their applications be processed in a timely and predictable manner.  Water law and Growth Management Act provisions are at a disconnect and need to be reconciled.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How will DOE define who benefits from the management services?  Does this include the general public that expects water to be available?  Or is it the individual water purveyors who are trying to meet the water demands for growth or the farmers who are trying to have enough water to produce food for a growing population?  The State has an obligation to manage water resources and as such should provide necessary resources (i.e. adequate staffing) through the General Fund.  It is also reasonable to expect applicants for new water rights or changes to help pay via a user fee (fair share and balanced amount).  However, it is equally reasonable for the payers of these user fees to expect that their applications be processed in a timely and predictable manner.  Water law and Growth Management Act provisions are at a disconnect and need to be reconciled.</p>
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		<title>By: TVA</title>
		<link>http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/wsw3/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TVA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ecologywa.wordpress.com/?p=105#comment-119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Typical of DOE, the public comment exercise is window dressing only.  The Department has already prepared a set of funding recommendations to the legislature (http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/1011022.pdf).  It is this type of dishonesty that has robbed DOE of credibility and led a lot of Washington&#039;s citizens to say, if anything, DOE&#039;s budget should be slashed.  Until the agency is cleaned of its activist personnel and demonstrates it can work honestly with the public, I join that group.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Typical of DOE, the public comment exercise is window dressing only.  The Department has already prepared a set of funding recommendations to the legislature (<a href="http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/1011022.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/1011022.pdf</a>).  It is this type of dishonesty that has robbed DOE of credibility and led a lot of Washington&#8217;s citizens to say, if anything, DOE&#8217;s budget should be slashed.  Until the agency is cleaned of its activist personnel and demonstrates it can work honestly with the public, I join that group.</p>
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